Pamela’s Prayer: Part 5

The next scene after graduation (I suppose we can assume that about a week has gone by) Frederick swings by the ugliest house in the world Casa Buckland.  It’s an unexpected call, and for a couple of unexpected reasons.

Frederick asks to start working at the Film Library full time!

Frederick:  Mr. Buckland, I’d like to start working full time at the library, try to help more with the ministry.  I really feel like this is what the Lord wants for me to do.  I talked it over with my parents but I know you have the final word.  Just wanted to let your know.

Ha!  The “just wanted to let you know” makes it sound like Freddy is just planning to show up Monday morning, whether Wayne agrees to this or not.  Just wanted to let you know!  😀

Wayne:  Well, this comes as a surprise.  I was thinking with you graduating, I’d be losing you at the end of the summer.  Now you want to stay on full time.

Um, yes, Wayne…he just said that.

(Also, insert your own “Wayne ‘losing’ Freddy” joke here.)

Despite his alleged surprise, Wayne needs no time to “think about it, pray about it“—he hires Frederick on the spot.

But Fred’s not done yet!

Freddy:  Oh, there is one other thing.  I was going to take a ride over to the rock formations and if it’s okay with you and okay with Pamela, I was wondering if she’d like to come along?

Damn, that Freddy has balls of solid steel.  “Hey, boss, wanna hire me for full-time, like now?  Also, can I date your only daughter?  Like, now?

Hilariously, Pamela looks to her father for permission, raising her eyebrows, as the plinkety-plink music of goofiness plays.

Next shot: Frederick and Pamela driving to the rock formation.  So one of two things happened: either Freddy and Pam murdered Wayne and are running away into the mountains forever, or b) Wayne allowed Pamela to go on a date.

Either way, my mind is blown.

I mean, honestly, what has changed?  We “know how [Wayne] feels about dating.”  NO dating, no matter what.  There was never any time limit or condition on this feeling.  Granted, Pamela is now a high school graduate and an official grown-up (I suppose), but she also lives at home and works* for her dad.

*It is never, for the rest of the film, established what Pamela does with her days.  Presumably, with Freddy working full time for her dad, her work is no longer required.  After all, Wayne and his dad ran the business alone for decades.  (And I remain shocked that this place can support not one, but two households.)  Anyway, we never see Pamela going to school or getting a different job, though she does appear to occasionally help out at the library (she brings the men lunch at least once).  So I guess, like the spinsters of old, the plan was always for her to live at home, cooking and cleaning for her dad and helping in little ways at his business, until the suitable man (quite literally) knocked at the door.

Anyway, even on her second not-really-a-date ever, Wayne is never far from Pamela’s thoughts.  Her very first words to Freddy, once they reach the rock formation, are:

Pamela:  My grandfather used to bring my dad up here a lot when he was a little boy.  Said that this was a good praying spot.

The conversation quickly turns serious: Pamela discusses the fact that her parents were in their thirties when they met (why she brings this up is anybody’s guess, though it does make me wonder if Wayne and Sarah both waited for their wedding day, when they were both in their thirties, to kiss anyone).  Anyway, Freddy takes this as an invitation to ask how Pamela’s mom died.  (????)  Pamela reveals that Sarah died of an amniotic fluid embolism, a very rare pregnancy complication.  I’m a bit confused as to why this information is presented to the viewer now, as opposed to, say, at the beginning of the movie, right after Sarah’s death.  Unless, of course, the idea is the assure Freddy and the viewers that although Sarah died in childbirth, it was nothing that would affect Pamela’s ability to spawn.

Despite this sad line of conversation, Pamela states that she has enjoyed herself on this odd little “date.”  This leads to our next montage, in which Freddy appears in every facet of Wayne and Pamela’s lives: working at the film library with them, attending church with them, watching a Christian film with them.  (Where are your parents, Freddy?  I know you have them, because you mentioned them.  Don’t they ever want to spend time with you?)


Hawt date

This montage apparently covers quite the passage of time, because we leave the montage at “December 1990,” at War on Christmastime.  To review, Pamela was born in January of 1969.  Which means she is just about to turn twenty-one.  Which means it’s been between three and four YEARS since she and Freddy started courting.

Holy schmoly.

And now I have to wonder if they have ever spent any time alone together since that sad rock formation “date.”

We know it’s the War on Christmas, because a jarring, all-bells version of “O Come, All Ye Faithful” jangles in the background as Wayne fusses ineffectually with some ornaments.  Freddy pulls up in his truck (he’s been driving it since graduation, so I assume that it’s his, bought with his after-school earnings).  Honestly, it’s not the vehicle I expected from a prepster like Freddy.  I would have figured him for a Volvo wagon kind of guy.  Freddy looks a bit nervous and uptight, almost as if he had something important on his mind…


Really, with that hat on the wall and that plastic bow on the door?  Boy, don’tcha miss the eighties?

It’s worth noting that even after working for him and courting his daughter for this long, Frederick still calls Wayne “Mr. Buckland.”  He compliments the decorating scheme, which sucks more than a little bit, but Pamela did it, so Freddy is no fool.  Since Pam is still making some last ornaments in her room, Freddy has the opportunity to pop the question…to Wayne.

Freddy:  Mr. Buckland, there’s something I’d like to ask you.

Wayne:  Sure.

Freddy: Mr. Buckland, I’d like to ask you for your permission to marry Pamela.  I love her very much, sir, and I know she’s the one the Lord has for me.

The one the Lord HAS for him?  That is just so weird.  Did the actor miss a word or two?  I would have thought the phrase would be, “the one the Lord has in mind for me,” but that is not what Freddy says.  Anyone ever heard this one before?

Anyway, Wayne gets the slimiest look on his face, and the weirdest tone in his voice as he quizzes Freddy:

Wayne:  How do you know that, Frederick?


I say “quizzes” because that’s what it sounds like: like a teacher asking a student a question to which it is certain the student knows the answer.  Like a parent asking a child, “What do we say?” when the child forgets a “please.”

Frederick:  Well, when I was younger, I told the Lord that I wanted to marry the girl that he wanted me to.  So I promised him that I wouldn’t kiss a girl until my wedding day.  And if I did that, if I waited, he’d show me who the right girl was by bringing me someone who did the same thing.  I know Pamela’s that girl.

Wayne turns away and smirks the smirk of someone who has been proved to be Right All Along.  Pamela trots down the stairs into the living room and we see the passage of time by the fact that she has chopped her long hair off.  You can see the true love between Freddy and Pam as they have the following deep and tender conversation:

Pam: Hi.

Fred: Hi.

Pam: How are you?

Fred:  Good.  How are you?

Pam:  Fine.

Given this proof of deep and abiding love, Wayne signals his assent with a nod to Freddy, who just pops the question (again), right then and there, in front of Wayne.  (He doesn’t even get down on one knee, the jerk.)

Freddy:  Pamela, I was just talking with your father.  I love you very much and I want you to be my wife.

Pamela smiles, and immediately looks to Wayne, who nods his assent.  Good thing too, because we wouldn’t want Pamela to make a decision for herself or anything.

Freddy: Pamela, will you marry me?

Pam:  Yes.  I’d love to.

And Wayne immediately comes over and hugs them, and he kisses Pamela (on the forehead) and shakes Freddy’s hand.  And since he steps between Pam and Freddy and hugs each with one arm, the two lovebirds don’t even come within 18 inches of each other in this whole scene!  What, no firm handshake?  No high five?  No friendly thump on the shoulder?

Kidding aside, you know what’s really sad?  Pamela never says she loves Frederick, in this scene or any other.  She says she’d love to marry him, but that’s…not the same thing.

Next scene: “November 8, 1991,” (a Friday, so presumably the wedding will be the next day, Saturday, because we’re at the rehearsal).

Wait a second.  Freddy proposed at War on Christmastime, 1990.  Now it’s November of the next year.  So it took eleven months to plan this wedding?  What the hell, WHY???  They’re getting married in the same church they’ve attended for years, with a guest list of…I guess you could say ones of people.


After the miming of the walking back up the aisle, Wayne corners Freddy.

Wayne:  How you feeling?

Freddy:  Good.  I feel like the most blessed man on earth.

Wayne:  That’s how I felt the night before I got married.  I had so much joy in my heart I couldn’t contain myself.

Jesus, Wayne, could things be about someone other than you for, like, FIVE MINUTES?

No.  No, they cannot.  Wayne proceeds to give some nice, depressing advice to the young groom—that he only had two years with Sarah before she died, and you never know when your time is up.


Oh well, Freddy takes it in stride, and we cut to Wayne and Pamela, praying on her bed one last time.

It’s actually a pretty sucky prayer: Wayne basically just asks God to make sure Freddy and Pam stay Christians.  The attempts to tug at heartstrings continue, as Wayne gives Pamela her mother’s cross, and they stare at each other a lot.



Is it just me, or does Jessica look way happier to be there than the bride or the groom?

(Also, Jessica just generally looks happy and well-adjusted.  Not that I expected the movie to show her crying in the corner of the church or anything, but it looks like her one youthful regret isn’t stopping her from living a happy life.)

So, are you wondering about the word “obey”?  I am!

Minister: Do you take Pamela to be your lawful wedded wife?  To love her, honor her, provide for her, and lead her always in the name of our lord Jesus Christ?

Freddy: I do.

Minister:  And Pamela, do you take Frederick to be your lawful wedded husband?  To love him, care for him, respect him, and submit to his leadership in the name of our lord Jesus Christ?

Pamela:  I do.

So, no “obey.”  “Lead” and “submit,” though.  And I doubt Freddy could lead a drunk to a pub, just sayin’.

And here we go, you guys—THE MOMENT WE HAVE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR!!!

Pamela’s (and Freddy’s) First Kiss Ever


Here we go!



Wait, what?

Yeah, yeah, yeah…as usual, we don’t actually get to see a kiss in a Christian film.

A Christian film about kissing.

Pam and Freddy leeeean in—and cut to Wayne’s giant, smirking face.

Thus leaving us to conclude that the most important thing about Pamela’s first kiss ever is how it makes her father feel.


But I’m serious: remember how I said in the very beginning that the film lied about this being Pamela’s story—that it is really Wayne’s story?  Well, Pamela goes to kiss her husband, we cut to Wayne’s face…and we never cut back to Pamela and Frederick.  We don’t get any reaction from either of them. We never do get an answer to Jessica’s question: “So, what did you think of kissing–did you like it?”

From Wayne’s face, the very next shot is of Wayne arriving home after the wedding.

And how Wayne spends the evening of his daughter’s wedding day.

This is Wayne’s story, not Pamela’s.

The music of sadness plays as Wayne unwinds from the wedding: he removes his snap-on bowtie and wanders around the house, gazing longingly into Pamela’s Pamela-free bedroom.  (Dude, creepy!)

Her changes clothes, then, inexplicably, makes himself a huge dinner-for-one, including TWO baked potatoes and TWO dinner roles.  Then he fills an entire sink right to the top with soapy water in order to wash his one plate and glass.

Wayne, buddy, did you not just come from a wedding party?  Eleven months of planning, and nobody thought to have a reception, or any kind of meal at all?  What the hell?  Shouldn’t Wayne have enough appetizers and dry chicken to last him a month?

Makes no sense.

A smaller point that also makes no sense: why didn’t Wayne invite his mom to spend the night at his place, or, better yet, spend the night at her place?  That way, they could hang out and keep each other company and maybe have a good cry and not stare at Pamela’s empty room together.

But no, I guess Grandma (Pamela’s primary caretaker growing up, let’s remember) is on her own.

A bigger point: this really illustrates how empty Wayne’s life is.  He’s been single for almost 22 years.  And in all that time, it seems that not only has he not had a single date, but he doesn’t have a single friend.  Just like with Pamela, we have no idea of anything about Wayne.  Other than protecting his daughter’s lips and watching Christian films, what does he like to do?  What are his hobbies, his interests?  Who does he ever hang out with other than his daughter, his now-son-in-law/business partner, and his mother?



Wayne reads for awhile as the music of sadness continues, and I wonder if Wayne is trying not to think about how much hot monkey sex his precious daughter is engaging in at that very moment.  Heh.

He heads upstairs and gazes into Pamela’s room again, but levels up this time and goes to sit on her bed.  (Dude, stop creeping!)  Finally, he goes to his own bed, sheesh, and just as he is finishing his gazing at Sarah’s picture…the phone rings!

It’s Pamela, who sees nothing at all weird about calling her father on her wedding night.  In fact, she wants to pray with him…”one more time.”



Wayne:  Okay, if it’s alright with Frederick.

Daughter, are you properly submitting to the headship of your husband?  You have been married for almost four hours, after all.


But I guess that first kiss that he waited a lifetime for, didn’t have that much impact on Freddy, either, as he is perfectly fine to let Pamela chat with her dad ON THEIR FREAKING WEDDING NIGHT I AM NEVER GETTING OVER THIS.

And Pamela asks that this time, she be the one who prays.

It is so sad that she had to wait until she was a married woman of 21, to be able to pray for herself.

Pamela:  Dear Lord, thank you so much for my daddy.

Well, that’s it.  That is officially Pamela’s Prayer.


We flash back over scenes that we might have forgotten, given that this movie is nearly one whole hour long (then again, it has taken me five installments to critique it, so…).  Sarah heads to the hospital with the basketball, Wayne feeds the baby, Wayne signs “Happy Birthday” to his daughter before demanding to know what her private birthday prayer was, Jerry asks out Pamela, Jessica and Pamela chat, kids laugh at Pamela, Pamela confessions her sinful transgressions to Wayne, Wayne shows Freddy how Christian films work, Jessica has sex, Pamela settles for Freddy, Wayne prevents Pam and Freddy from showing any physical contact, even though they have just agreed to marry, and Pam and Freddy marry, both looking like they’re standing in line at a bank.

Wow, Pamela does have a lot to be grateful for.

Or not.

So, the montage is it.  Roll credits.

And the mystery remains unsolved.

What did Pamela think of kissing?

Rock on, Jessica.  Rock on.



Posted on October 7, 2014, in Movies, Pamela's Prayer. Bookmark the permalink. 17 Comments.

  1. Hilarious. Great job on this one.

  2. Ah, so that’s how you’re supposed to find your spouse if you’re not allowed to date: Pray to god to lead you to a likeminded spouse, then declare it god’s will that you marry the first eligible virgin you meet.

    I suppose it’s something that Freddy also mentions that he loves Pamela, which is more than we got in Second Glance AFAIK. But it’s still presented as an afterthought, seeing how much more time Freddy spends explaining how he knows Pamela is his waifu based solely on the fact that she’s never kissed anyone.

    What would have happened if Pamela had said “Actually, dad, I was so afraid of you being mad at me that I told you another lie. I actually did kiss Jerry.” Would Freddy have called the whole thing off? Would Wayne have approved of Freddy calling it off?

    • Headless Unicorn Guy

      Ah, so that’s how you’re supposed to find your spouse if you’re not allowed to date: Pray to god to lead you to a likeminded spouse, then declare it god’s will that you marry the first eligible virgin you meet.

      You haven’t been listening to all those “How I Met My Wife” Christian Testimonies, have you?

  3. Well, this makes for an interesting comparison for me. I was engaged a month later than Pamela & Freddy, but married just two months after that. Yeah, I might have been better off going the eleven months route, in hindsight. Then again, we weren’t saving everything for that night.

    Wondering, was the movie made when most or all of these dates were already in the past, or when some were in the future? Also, slightly related typo, you have “War on Christmastime, 1991” when you’re talking about 1990.

    • Thanks–fixed it!

      The movie came out in 1999. So I guess we can assume that Pam and Freddy have been married for a half-dozen years or so, and are busily raising their own little tykes to avoid all physical contact with other humans. 😉

  4. Weird that Wayne doesn’t even hang out with any like-minded Christian dads to share virginity-guarding strategies or passive-aggressively compete over whose offspring turns out purest. I mean, my dad doesn’t really have friends either, but he’s super introverted, which I don’t think Wayne is meant to be, and my dad at least has a lot of co-workers in his own age range to talk to. Doesn’t Wayne even go to church and talk to people there?

    Also, my husband and I totally took over a year to actually tie the knot after we’d decided we wanted to, but we were living together all that time so we weren’t missing much.

  5. So, you don’t need any education beyond high school to work at (and run, since you know Wayne wants Freddy to take over for him once he goes the way of Grandpa) a Christian film library, apparently? (Speaking of Grandpa, assuming that Wayne was probably raised a lot like he raised Jessica would probably assume Wayne’s lack of friends. As well as the fact that he didn’t get married until his thirties.)

    I agree that waiting a total of five years until the wedding sounds like a very long time, especially considering the film stresses the fact that Freddy will not be going to college. Most courtships among fundies that stress not kissing before marriage last a year or less from meeting to wedding, so that the couple won’t be too tempted to give in to their carnal urges before the big day. The fact that Freddy has a steady job and no other apparent plans for his life make it seem even weirder. Maybe the filmmakers were trying to appeal to a broader audience by not having Pamela and Freddy shacking up at nineteen.

    As for Pamela calling her father to pray with him, I’d bet she is desperately trying to put off having sex by any means possible. She has spent her whole life believing that if you even kiss a boy, you are a dirty whore, and now she is expected to have sex with one. It would be hard for anyone to change gears mentally and now think it’s okay to do when it wasn’t a few hours ago, and much more so for someone who has repressed their emotions as much as Pamela probably has. I’ll bet she has been giving Freddy one excuse after another ever since they arrived at wherever it is they’re staying.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy

      As for Pamela calling her father to pray with him, I’d bet she is desperately trying to put off having sex by any means possible. She has spent her whole life believing that if you even kiss a boy, you are a dirty whore, and now she is expected to have sex with one.

      Even worse if the new hubby has been raised in Christianese Purity Culture, where he was bribed to stay a virgin by tales of Barn-Burning Swinging-from-the-Chandeliers Dynamite Married S*E*X 24/7/365 starting the instant you say “I Do”. Add any paraphilias acquired during the long wait (including porn and locker-room bragging) and he’ll be expecting his new Virgin Bride to shift from “Virgin Unto Death” to “My Personal Porn Star Fulfilling EVERY One of My Built-Up Fantasies Starting NOW!”

      Though I was never raised in Christianese Purity Culture, I ended up with a lot of the same kinks — including an extreme Virgin/Whore Dichotomy — so I know what’d come into such a marriage from the male end. But I figured after decades of “Virgin Unto Death” it would take at least several months to reprogram my brain into married sex, and get used to it, including a lot of hilarious experimentation, crossed signals, and dead ends before we got synced up.

      But Christianese Purity Culture? Instantaneous shift, “WOMAN! SUBMIT!”

  6. “Okay, if it’s alright with Frederick.”
    First thought: Oh, so now your husband is more important than god himself? Cause if your husband doesn’t want you to pray, you should just skip the prayer?
    Second thought: Well, at least Wayne is consistent in his views on the submission of women to their male authority figures. Up until now, he has taken it for granted that he has the right to dictate Pamela’s every action. But the second Pamela marries, he instantly makes way for the next authority figure. He’s clearly having an empty-nest moment, but he still makes his wishes for his daughter’s attention conditional on her husband’s approval. Of course, he does the same to Pamela’s wishes, so it’s still creepy.

  7. That opening bit with Freddy makes me think of one of those horror films where someone insinuates himself into a family to make the slaughter easier.

    Differences between Freddy-and-Pamela and dating:
    (1) He asked Pamela’s owner’s permission first.
    (2) He claims to be a Christian.

    Of course Wayne has stayed single for 22 years. After the one the Lord had for him had gone, his only purpose in life was to ensure his property found a safe new owner. And the film library ditto.

  8. Headless Unicorn Guy

    Really, with that hat on the wall and that plastic bow on the door? Boy, don’tcha miss the eighties?

    The Seventies were tackier.
    Check out Interior Desecrations by James Lileks sometime.

  9. I mean, honestly, what has changed? We “know how [Wayne] feels about dating.” NO dating, no matter what.

    Sadly, this makes all too much sense to me.

    Let’s consider Jerry. He was a selfish idiot, particularly in how he treated Jessica. “If you really love me, then you’ll have sex with me” is a really lousy and manipulative thing to say, but technically speaking, that’s still asking Jessica to make a choice. And that seems to be Jerry’s great sin: Assuming women have the authority to make their own choices.

    What Pamela did with Jerry was a date, because Jerry asked Pamela to the game and Pamela said yes. What Freddy is doing with Pamela is not a date, because Freddy asked Wayne for permission. Freddy obeyed the proper chain of command, Jerry foolishly thought that a woman’s permission was enough. (On a personal note, I hate that this movie is making me defend Jerry as a paragon of equality.)

    Pamela: My grandfather used to bring my dad up here a lot when he was a little boy. Said that this was a good praying spot.

    How does that work, exactly? I get that someone might have a favourite praying spot, but what makes a particular place a good praying spot? God’s cell phone network has good reception there? Soil quality that doesn’t stain your clothes when kneeling? I know, I’m overthinking this. It just feels weird, a dad teaching his son a good praying spot, the same way he might teach a good fishing spot.

    Freddy: I love her very much, sir, and I know she’s the one the Lord has for me.
    Wayne: How do you know that, Frederick?

    “Naturally, when I claim to know what God wants, I’m always correct. But before I hand over my daughter, I need to make sure you are also capable of accurately divining God’s every thought.”

    Seriously, I’m getting very tired of these men just casually claiming to know what God wants. It’s one thing to say something like “I believe God wants all people to live in peace”, that’s more of a philosophical position. Quite another matter to claim “I believe God wants me to marry this specific person.”

    Like I’ve said before, Wayne and now Freddy behave as if they don’t really think God is listening. If you believe that there is a god, and that he’s a jealous god who punishes those who displease him, shouldn’t you be a bit more careful about throwing around all these “God wants this” and “God wants that”?

    Frederick: Well, when I was younger, I told the Lord that I wanted to marry the girl that he wanted me to.

    Listen, Freddy, “wanting” doesn’t really work that way. You can agree to do something someone else wants you to do, but you can’t agree to want something someone else wants you to want. That’s like being asked: “What’s your favourite food?” and you answering: “My favourite food is whatever you want my favourite food to be.” That’s just you being a sycophant.

    Unless, of course, whenever Wayne and Freddy say “God wants” they really mean “I want” and just use God as a means to reinforce their sense of authority. But surely such men of faith as these would not misuse God’s name in so callous a fashion.

    So I promised him that I wouldn’t kiss a girl until my wedding day. And if I did that, if I waited, he’d show me who the right girl was by bringing me someone who did the same thing.

    I’m trying really hard to parse these sentences to figure out who is actually doing what. The language seems purposefully convoluted and equivocating, leaving vague as to what extent God was involved at all. What we are meant to hear probably goes something like: “I promised him I wouldn’t kiss a girl until my wedding day. And (then God answered me and promised in turn that) if I waited, he’d show me who the right girl was.”

    But that part in the parenthesis is not actually said, Freddy just skips from his own promise to the presumption that God reciprocated. Equally well you could read the word “and” as referring to the phrase “I promised” in the previous sentence. “I promised him that I wouldn’t kiss a girl. And (I also promised that) if I waited, he’d show me who the right girl was.” This is Freddy promising to God that God will do something for Freddy!

    This confusion of who exactly is promising what to whom here seems to suggest that the characters (and I suspect by extension, the scriptwriters) can’t quite make a distinction between their own desires and their god’s desires.

    Pamela goes to kiss her husband, we cut to Wayne’s face…and we never cut back to Pamela and Frederick.

    So. This movie is the story of how Pamela comes ever closer to the act of kissing, but never quite reaches it. Kind of like one of Zeno’s paradoxes.

    Before you can kiss, you must be married. To be married, you must have a wedding. To have a wedding, you must have a proposal. To propose, you must get the father’s permission. For father to give permission, he must quiz the prospective groom. And so on. There is an infinite number of increasingly small requirements. Therefore, Pamela can never catch up with the tortoise. I mean, she can never kiss Achilles. (Well, Achilles was a heathen anyway, so it’s probably for the best.)

    • Headless Unicorn Guy

      Before you can kiss, you must be married. To be married, you must have a wedding. To have a wedding, you must have a proposal. To propose, you must get the father’s permission. For father to give permission, he must quiz the prospective groom.

      Helps if the prospective groom waves a check for $20 grand in Bride Price under the father’s nose…

    • that seems to be Jerry’s great sin: Assuming women have the authority to make their own choices

      This theme comes up in the weirdest places. For instance, Laurell K. Hamilton’s books. They’re supposedly the antithesis of crap like Pamela’s Prayer, being ostensibly violent, porny, and full of supernatural creatures, though really people just stand around whining throughout most of them. But the one thing her avatars seem unable to forgive in a man is when he demands to know said avatar’s opinion about something, rather than forcing his will upon her.

  10. This whole film is just awful. It’s sort of triggering for me, because I was totally raised in that culture – I remember having those “is it ok to kiss before marriage” and “how far is too far”, etc. *shudder*

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